quicktag

[isma]

Dear Jon,
I find that a very nice feature of Sente is the quicktag pane. I was wondering if there was any plan to adapt this idea into Bookends. Or if there was any way to mimic it into Bookends
Best
Ismaïl

[Jon]

As I understand it, a tag is just a keyword, and quick tags let you add them at the bottom of a pane at the right in Sente. I may be missing something important, if so tell me what it is.

In Bookends you can enter a tag in the keyword field in the right pane, and it has autocomplete. So that seems to be, superficially at least, very similar. You can also keep a Term List -> Keywords window open, and at any time add a keyword (tag) with a right click or drag and drop.

Jon
Sonny Software

[laxei]

In Sente quick tags are hierarchical and can be arranged using a quick tag palette. One can also assign a tag by checking a box in the palette.

For me the move from hierarchical tagging was the biggest change but tag cloud in Bookends helps a lot and I find it easier to use than searches in Sente. But there's no possibility to group keywords as virtual tags, which would enable a sort of hierarchical tagging, so if you wish to accomplish a hierarchy you need to apply 'higher' tags separately or by using global change.

Alex

[Jon]

I excluded keywords from virtual tags because I assumed that since you (the user) created the keyword you would want that to be shown by itself. If you add it to a virtual tag you won't be able select it individually. Virtual tags aren't meant to be hierarchical, but to allow you to group words that have the same essential meaning into a group (e.g. "tint", "hue", "color").

Bookends lets you select multiple tags at once, which is the same thing, but you still have the opportunity to select just one.

I'm not sure how one would superimpose hierarchical keywords (tags) on the various mechanisms that Bookends has (or if it would be desirable).

Jon
Sonny Software

[isma]

This is the hierarchical nature of the tags that I find very useful in Sente.
So if I have the following hierarchy of tags

- methods
-- penalized regression
--- lasso
--- elasticnet
- projects
-- pvegb
-- spoonkim

If I choose to tag a paper with "elasticnet" and "spoonkim", then it will automatically also have "methods", "penalized regression", "projects" tags

I find this very useful

[Jon]

The way you have outlined it is confusing to me. I would have thought the "methods" would include "penalized regression", "lasso", and "elasticnet". That is, an organization like hierarchical folders. What am I misunderstanding?

Jon
Sonny Software

[isma]

Sorry (my english is not very good)

all papers tagged with elasticnet are automatically tagged with penalized regression and methods
all papers tagged with lasso are automatically tagged with penalized regression and methods
Then if I choose the penalized_regression tag, then I will get the papers with the lasso or the elasticnet tag plus the paper that are not so specific on the type of penalized regression and that I have only tagged as penalized_regression
I hope it is clearer

[Jon]

No, I don't get it. Why doesn't elasticnet also pull up lasso? Either you or I am viewing this backwards. To me, methods is at the top of the hierarchy, and choosing it should all the tags through elasticnet (it would stop at projects, which is the beginning of another top-level tag).

Jon
Sonny Software

[isma]

because elasticnet is a type of penalized regression, and the lasso is another type of penalized regression

[Jon]

Sorry to be dense, but that doesn't help.

If I were writing a hierarchical structure, it would be top-down, like a folder hierarchy.

Methods
--Western blot
--SDS PAGE
----Electrophoresis

Click on Methods gets all.
Click on Western blot gets Western blot, SDS PAGE, and Electrophoresis.
Click on SDS Page gets SDS PAGE and Electrophoresis

Jon
Sonny Software

[isma]

Sorry you are right
my mistake. I checked on sente and what I described in the post "Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:55 pm" is wrong

[isma]

What I was attempting to illustrate with elastic net and lasso is that they are on the same level of hierarchy
So there is no reason that when I tag a file with lasso it also get the elasticnet tag

[laxei]

Exactly. Ismail, what was wrong in your description at 3.55pm? Tags on the same level don't pull up each other - but penalised regression would of course pull up both lasso and elasticnet. Likewise, assigning lasso would assign also penalised regression and methods, but not elasticnet which is a sibling tag to lasso.

Jon, if that folder structure allows multiple subfolders (siblings) that's exactly how Sente tagging works. And searching is not a problem. But one needs to assign (an remember) all tags in the hierarchy (instead of assigning only lasso one needs to manually assign also penalised regression and methods).

As to virtual tags, wouldn't it depend on whether the 'Hide virtual tag members...' is checked if they show up also individually? But of course one would want to be able to select all keywords individually.

I had quite complex hierarchies in Sente and found them convenient but after using Bookends for a while I've learned to tag differently which works at least equally well for me. Smart groups are also helpful for the most common groupings.

[isma]

Sorry to be dense, but that doesn't help.

If I were writing a hierarchical structure, it would be top-down, like a folder hierarchy.

Methods
--Western blot
--SDS PAGE
----Electrophoresis

Click on Methods gets all.
Click on Western blot gets Western blot, SDS PAGE, and Electrophoresis.
Click on SDS Page gets SDS PAGE and Electrophoresis

Jon
Sonny Software

In you example, in fact, I would not expect to have SDS PAGE, and Electrophoresis when I click on Western Blot since Western blot and SDS PAGE seem to be on the same level of the hierarchy (if -- denotes the second level of hierarchy)

[Jon]

You're right.

I'm willing to explore hierarchical tags, but really am having a hard time seeing how it could fit in with the current keyword mechanism or tag cloud structures that we already have. It would seem to have to be another layer, and that gets complex, messy, and confusing for users. I'm open to people's thoughts...

Jon
Sonny Software