Colon or comma? Citing specific article pages

[macula]

In the Chicago A style (notes style), the citation of particular pages in a book (page 250, for example) requires a comma separator, as follows:

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Theodor W. Adorno, [i]Aesthetic Theory[/i], trans. Robert Hullot-Kentor, (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1997), 250.

The citation of particular pages in an article, however, requires a colon separator:

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Eytan Agmon, “Functional Harmony Revisited: A Prorotype-Theoretic Approach,” [i]Music Theory Spectrum[/i] 17, no. 2 (1995): 250.

Unfortunately, I am unable to make Bookends satisfy both requirements at the same time.

Here are my settings, hoping you can help me:

— Under Formats Manager —> Citation Options —> Cited Pages, my "Before" setting is a comma (hence, I believe) the comma in the book citations.

— My formatting for journals, however, includes a colon before the "page range" field code:

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a, “t,” ~review of ~u1~,~ f v|~, no. ~i (d`)`~: ~p-|~, ~z| .

and I was under the impression that this colon would override the comma.

Why doesn't this happen? There must be a solution, I am sure.

Thank you.

[Jon]

You don't show the actual citations. You seem to be using a format, not Cited Pages, to cite pages, but perhaps I misunderstand.

In any case, one punctuation symbol will not "override" another. If you want to use a format, you should check out Conditional Groups, which on the right situation will output different fields and punctutation on a conditional basis.

Jon
Sonny Software

[macula]

Hi Jon,

I do show the actual citations. (See my earlier post, in the "code" boxes. Chicago-style citations look like bibliographic entries. The difference between the two is subtle, including a subtle difference in the manner that cited pages are punctuated: commas for books, colon for articles).

I did use Cited Pages, I believe, because I entered the page numbers in the MS-Word windows that popped up as I was inserting the citations in my document.

To put my question otherwise: I would like the cited pages punctuation symbol to be an attribute of each reference type (one for books, one for articles, etc.), and not a global and inflexible attribute of the style as a whole. Is that possible?

Thank you.

[Jon]

No, there is only one cited pages per format. If you need another form, use quoted text to cite pages for that variant:

{temp cite\: 34.\}

Jon
Sonny Software

[macula]

The problem with quoted text is that it can only appear before or after a citation, and not in the middle. In some cases the cited pages are not the last element in the citation (e.g. in the Chicago A style, for journal articles that have a URL and consist of numbered pages the cited pages should appear before the URL).

Perhaps you would consider implementing this feature in a future version? It is ironic that, in its current state, Bookends — the most flexible bibliographic management on the planet — is unable to handle the Chicago A style perfectly.

[Jon]

Cited pages can also only appear at the end of the citation, not in the middle.

Jon
Sonny Software

[mysheepb]

No, there is only one cited pages per format. If you need another form, use quoted text to cite pages for that variant:

{temp cite\: 34.\}

Jon
Sonny Software

I tried this method. The problem is that, the page range of the article (which will be suppressed if I use @page) will be shown before the quoted text. How can I suppress the page range in this case?

Thanks.

[Jon]

Pages won't be suppressed by quoted text, you'd have to remove them manually.

Jon
Sonny Software

[mysheepb]

I see.

In that case, please consider implement changes that will be able to do what the original post asked for. Thanks!

[Jon]

You mean allowing more than one "before" for cited pages. I don't see a clean way to do this.

Jon
Sonny Software

[mysheepb]

My suggestions:

1. Let the Pages (p or p-) field do it. If the Pages field is specified in the format, replace it with the cited pages, otherwise use the default format. (probably the most straight forward, but not the most flexible)
2. Allow it to be specified in the format, e.g. using a new symbol (e.g. @?), so that a conditional group can be used. like {: @^: p-}. If this is specified in the format, then the choice for the "before and after cited pages" will be ignored.
3. Add individual settings for before and after cited pages for each type of reference. Now there are individual settings for the case of authors, etc. Why not also for before and after cited pages?
4. Allow the suppression of p or p- field in quoted text, using method like {temp cite@\: 43\}.

Hope they are clear enough and one of them may work. Thanks!

[Jon]

Cited pages are used in the temp citation, they are not part of the format (the before and after is, the @12 goes in the temp citation). The OP wanted conditional output for cited pages (the before), so #1-3 don't really fit. A variant of #4 is a possibility.

Jon
Sonny Software

[mysheepb]

I think the OP wanted conditional "before" cited pages based on the type of reference. And that my suggestion #1 was what s/he expected to happen. That's why s/he was "surprised" when the p- in ~: ~p- was not just replaced by the cited pages. It is quite natural to expect that. Suggestion #1 also allows the cited page to appear anywhere in the citation. I may be guessing his/her intention. But I am only hoping the problem regarding Chicago A footnote format can be solved, because I have the same problem as described by the OP. Thanks.

[Jon]

But that's not how cited pages works. The "p" in the format order is never replaced by cited pages. It is replaced by the pages entered in the reference Pages field (or suppressed if cited pages are used). And tying the Before field to a reference Type would require that each Type have it's own definition for Before and After, a clumsy solution.

But based on your #4 I think I've come up with a simple solution. I'll see if it works, and if so will post here.

Jon
Sonny Software

[Jon]

It's not quite done yet, but I think this will work.

You will be able to specify quoted text within a cited page:

{temp cite@\: \4}

will be output as

Smith, 2010: 4

regardless of what the Before is set to for cited pages in the format. And since this is a cited page, the pages normally output in the format will be supressed. In essence, this will let you specify what comes before a cited page on an ad hoc basis. If you just use the regular @ form, the Before text you specified in the format will be used.

Jon
Sonny Software