Request/idea: NoteCard browser

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danzac
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Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by danzac »

This is perhaps a longshot, but I'll throw it out there anyway. I would love if the bookends Notecards could be browsed, searched, and utilized in a similar way to Notedex. This could look like a separate window that is devoted exclusively to notecards. Because notecards are tied to their citation, comparison work between quotes and notes is very difficult, and the difficulty increases as one has more and more notecards.

A dedicated window would keep the search in the window dedicated to notecards, and perhaps even a tagcloud could be utilized for notecard tags specifically. This would also potentially allow for a way to connect a notecard from one citation to the notecard(s) of another, and add notes to notecards based on comparative work.
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Jon
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

I'm not sure how that would look (I'll take a look at Notedex), but I'm open to ideas. I assume you are speaking of PDF annotation notes, because the reference notes (the ones in the Notes field) belong to the reference itself. If you are, we do have Extract Annotations, which would let you compare notes between different references. Not a "browser" as you suggest, but still possibly useful for you.

If you or other have specific thoughts of how this would look/work, please chime in. At the moment I have a problem coming up with a global "note browser" that would be both responsive and useful.

Jon
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danzac
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by danzac »

I've only used reference notes (in the Notes field) but if PDF annotation notes provide the same functionality (pg#, quote, note) plus this type of browsing ability, I'd definitely make use this option instead.

For what it is worth, I visualize it like the attached image.
notes browser.jpg
notes browser.jpg (99.2 KiB) Viewed 3137 times
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tappazee
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by tappazee »

A couple of related ideas on the note stream:

- Option to enable all notes in note stream to expand to size of text contained in note so you can see all text of highlights and comments without having to click on individual notes to expand.

- Clearer relationship between PDF highlights and comments on those highlights in note stream. Currently comments appear above the note they're related to and it's not visually obvious that they're related. Having comments below their associated highlight would make more sense to me, and perhaps indented or visually grouped with the associated highlight somehow in the note stream. Ideally this would be the behaviour for notes/comments made within bookends and in 3rd party apps too (e.g. Preview). Screenshot is of how my old, long since dead, reference manager Sente did it:
Screenshot 2023-06-08 at 12.08.32.png
Screenshot 2023-06-08 at 12.08.32.png (95.08 KiB) Viewed 3129 times
Apologies if I'm missing existing ways to achieve these ends - would be great to hear if so. Thanks.
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

There is a way to see the contents of a notecard without opening it -- press the Option key and move the mouse over it. The content appears as a tooltip, so it lasts only 5-6 seconds, but if you move away and back to the cell it reappears. That is not ideal, of course, but it may suffice for now.

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tappazee
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by tappazee »

Thanks for this response Jon, appreciated
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

I’d like to revisit this thread.

Although some of the original requests are not feasible, they did get me thinking of how we could make access to notes and annotations across a range range of references possible, easy, and useful. I’ve created a simple prototype that has helped shape my thinking, and I’ll like feedback from users at an early stage to see if (1) it would be worth the effort, and (2) what else would you like to see (understanding that this is just brainstorming).

For now, let’s call this new feature the Note Tray, which would be a standalone window. Adding notecards to Note Tray is “opt-in”, meaning you curate them and decide which to include. What follows is the minimum feature set being considered. Don’t worry about the UI details, that would evolve.

1. The Note Tray is a grid of notecards. Anything you can show in the note steam can be added.
2. Add notecards by drag and drop from the note stream,
3. Re-order the notecards in the tray using drag and drop.
4. The entire content of a notecard can be shown if it overflows the cell.
5. Copy contents of notecards to other apps.
6. Double click a notecard to open the corresponding Bookends library and go to the reference -> PDF -> annotation, however deep it is.
7. The Note Tray does not belong to a database — it can hold notes from multiple databases.
8. Search notecards (which will find tags and quotes, too).

What it will not do:

1. The Note Tray is a dynamic repository, not another way to make or modify notes. Once in the Note Tray, the notecard is its own entity and is not editable there.
2. Editing a note in the Bookends library will not be reflected in their content in the Note Tray. Editing a PDF annotation will not either, although it may be possible to update an existing annotation in the Note Tray by dragging it from the note stream onto the Note Tray again.

Finally, I’m considering making the Note Tray a standalone application, not a part of Bookends. Meaning that you can launch and use it without opening Bookends, but a double click on an annotation will cause Bookends to open and show you the source.

Please let me know your thoughts. It would take a fair amount of time and effort to implement, which comes at the expense of other features, so if the response is “meh” I probably won’t proceed. But if there is sufficient enthusiasm I’ll continue to build out the prototype and see how it goes.

Jon
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danzac
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by danzac »

Here are some of my initial thoughts to your brainstorm for what its worth:

If your description is the way to go, the ability to "mass import" would be important. So if I could choose a whole group (or highlighted refs) and say "send notes to the note tray" this would be ideal.

I understand that it is "stand alone", but could there still be a way to edit the notecard in the note tray? And then perhaps be a simple "update notecard in BE" button? It not being editable (or dynamically updated) would limit its value somewhat, as I envision it, in part, as a workspace. So as I am seeing and reading the notes from many different places, I can add additional notes and comments to the notecards.
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

> this would be ideal.

No it wouldn't. You would be able to import all the notes and annotations from one reference at a go. It's unlikely you'd be able to do a mass import of hundreds of references, each with potentially many dozens of notecards, at one time. Remember, these are intended to be curated, notes and annotations you think are meaningful. If you have a thousand references (quite common), each with a PDF (common), and an average of 3 notecards from the notes field and 10 annotations (highlights, underlines, standalone notes), that's 13,000 notecards. Not only would the grid control be totally inadequate for that tremendous number, the noise to signal would make it useless.If that's what you want, maybe apps like DEVONthink 3, whose main functions revolve around PDFs, annotations, and their management, is what you're looking for.

As to the second point, again you're not understanding the what the Note Tray is for. I could go into technical detail if you want (I'll hold off right now), but what you are asking for is impossible (and also simply a bad idea in my mind even if it were). The Note Tray would not supplant any existing capability i Bookends -- where you can edit the notes and annotations (the ones you can edit, that is) all you want. You don't need another way to do the same thing. Each note in the Note Tray is a link. To edit the original, just double click and you can. To answer your last sentence, yes, you can read notes in the Note Tray, double click to go the source read/edit that, and take notes *in any app you want* (e.g. your word processor, note taking app, email, etc.). The focus of the Tray would be to help you write, Not to add yet more notes.

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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

To expand on on my last reply: Bookends is reference-centric. That includes reference metadata and source (if available, and if so usually a PDF). As part of that Bookends facilitates collecting data from online sources. Notes and annotations are an important, but secondary, consideration. Other major areas are organization and writing. Bookends facilitates the latter by scanning and creating polished in-text citations, footnotes, and bibliographies. What about organization, then?

Bookends has powerful and flexible group options, but that's organizing references by topic or relationships, not subtler aspects of a discipline or area. That's where I see an opportunity for the Note Tray. You add the notes and annotation that you feel are important from any database you have, if you're one that breaks subjects down into separate databases. When it's time to write (a summary, a pro-and-con, or even a dissertation), you can read them, go right to the source for each and re-read in context and see the other notes you made, copy the contents to your word processor, etc. I have another idea of how to make this even more useful, but that's an implementation detail, not part of a discussion of the concept.

Anyway, that's my thinking. You should not compare it to your original requests, which already exist in other excellent apps. This is something different that builds on Bookends' strengths as a reference-centric app, and something I don't think is available elsewhere on the Mac (I could be wrong, it's big software universe). If users think this doesn't add much then it's not worth the time and effort. A nay is as (perhaps more) helpful than a yea.

Everyone who uses Bookends notes and annotations seriously is welcome to chime in.

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DrJJWMac
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by DrJJWMac »

I read this with some interest. I might pose my thoughts as below.

> and something I don't think is available elsewhere on the Mac (I could be wrong, it's big software universe).

I might point to [Flexcil](https://www.flexcil.com) for iOS. Perhaps this app approaches what you have in mind as a UI for your Note Tray on macOS. Also, I used to have a macOS app that allowed one to assemble notes from PDF documents in a manner similar to Highlights, with export to markdown. This was about five years or so ago. I have since deleted the app and cannot find it anymore in a Google search. I might also point to LiquidText and MarginNote, as well as Scrivener (since you mentioned including a post-it board to collect notes). Finally, I should make reference to [Keypoints](https://keypoints.app), where a comparable need for a "Note Tray" approach might be found.

Recognizing a value in what you want to provide, I have to ask: Is the feature set already available in a different app *and Bookends simply needs to provide that app with access to the notes in its database*. By analogy -- You do not have a BookEndsBibDesk app as a stand-alone app. You rely on syncing an exported .bib file to the existing BibDesk apps (and you spent a solid amount of recent time to improve the reliability of this sync for users). Following on this, to what extent then should you forgo developing your own stand-alone Note Tray app *that is only useful for Bookends users* and instead invest in providing apps such as Obsidian, Devonthink, Scrivener ... with an improved ability to sync with notes and annotations that otherwise reside almost exclusively locked away in the libraries for Bookends?

By continued example, I was very pleased with your almost overnight offering for Bookends to export annotations as markdown. Why not continue development in this direction, e.g. provide automatic synchronization of a markdown file that has Bookend notes + annotations? A user could then run Bookends and Obsidian (or Devonthink or Scrivener or ...) side-by-side, with the other app serving as the tool to read, re-read in context, assemble for the bigger picture, copy into/out of, etc ... IOW, rather than developing Note Tray as a stand-alone app to Bookends, leverage the fact that existing apps already do what you want Note Tray to do and instead provide those apps with better automatic synchronization access to the notes + annotations in Bookends.

My comments above may still not address other concerns about how notes and annotations are managed within Bookends itself. I leave others to comment on such issues.
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Jon
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

@DrJJWMac

Thank you for the feedback. When I wrote I wasn't aware of other apps that did what Note Tray would (might) I was thinking about having a direct hook between notes/annotations and references (maybe something for Hookmark to facilitate?) and thinking primarily of reference managers. But of course you are right there are a lot of interesting note-centric apps out there that might work very well indeed in conjunction with Bookends. The rub is that interaction would presumably be one-sided, unless the authors of the other apps have an API, a flexible AppleScript dictionary, and/or would be willing to work with us. And if there is to be a bi-directional exchange of information, the authors of cooperating apps would almost certainly have to be involved. Having said that, in principal I like the idea very much. I can say I've been contacted by another developer who read these posts, and maybe something will come of that. I'm still at the exploratory phase, and comments like yours help a lot.

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DrJJWMac
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by DrJJWMac »

Jon:

I am glad my comments resonated and sparked further insights.

As a background, I generally resolve to limit my use of apps that lock me in to their ecosystem for managing document content. Hence also my continued great applause for your solid efforts to allow us to export annotation notes to markdown.

FWIW, I had a tangential thought on whether any benefit could be had in being able to process annotations and notes from Bookends in apps such as Curio or Tinderbox. With regard to the former, I can speak highly of George at Zengobi for his willingness to engage in discussions on new ideas.

I look forward to hearing where this exploration takes you.
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Jon
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Jon »

I'll remember that. I've actually already discussed some of this with Mark Bernstein (Tinderbox) with whom I've previously worked to allow access to Bookends references, and have been asked to present to a group of their regular users for feedback.

BTW, I should have addressed the final comment in your first post by saying that users looking for enhancements in the handling of annotations should be pleased by an update scheduled for August.

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Dellu
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Re: Request/idea: NoteCard browser

Post by Dellu »

I support JJW's idea of exporting to markdown.
That will remove the barrier or dependence to specific app. Obsidian is the popular app today. Another app will be popular tomorrow.

For that, exporting using markdown format will make the notes accessible to any app that can use them.

I would specifically be very pleased if you can do what you did on the bibliography files.

BibSync => MarkSync.

That is, the user first sets up the folder where to store his/her notes; does the first exporting. He then simply hits a shortcut to reflect the change made inside BE to the exported file.

That way, the Obsidian/DT indexes and the Bookends annotations would have a live link.

The Highlights app has this feature by the way. It is called a "Sidecar" there. As new annotations are added to the pdf, a markdown file containing the annotations is exported next to the pdf file. Further additions are reflected in an instance.
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