Post-v.10 requests

[danzac]

Really loving v.10 of BE, it has really placed BE in a class by itself. Couple of wishes sitting on my list (my list never goes away, I know )

I always try and wait a little while after a release to make some suggestions. So here goes:

1. Add and Abstract/Keywords view in the List view, and make them editable.
2. Make BE remember the window sizes for attachments and formatted.
3. There are elements of the "standard" concise view format that I would like in my custom format for the concise tab (type of reference, rating, in group) that cannot be placed in a custom format. Is there a way to make a standard duplicate that would be editable - or create the ability to add those elements to a custom format for the concise view?
4. My biggest request if for Bookends to allow the user to specify whether title/sentence case should be applied to journal field. Back when the title case ability came out and I started using it I thought it was great, until I realized it was changing the case to my glossary abbrev's from the journal field. So I had to go back to being prudent in casing, rather then letting Bookends fix mistakes itself. Please don't let the case for the title field have jurisdiction over the journal field as well.
5. This is probably more of a refbase issue, which I have brought up to them already. But a tight syncing ability between the two would be fantastic. This would mean that refbase would need to recognize duplicates and updates. On the Bookends side, it would be nice to have the option to keep them synced automatically.

Cheers!

[msteffens]

Hi, I'd like to respond on your last point (5.). As mentioned in another forum thread I (speaking for the refbase devs) am very willing to improve the refbase integration with Bookends. A full-blown refbase synching API and its implementation in Bookends is one of the big features I'd like to see and use myself! Hooking duplicates detection into the refbase importer is on our ToDo list (thanks for the reminder!). My time available for refbase development is currently limited, though, but I anticipate to have significantly more time (if not full time) for development during the first half of next year.

I cannot speak for Jon, of course, but my previous discussions with him indicated that he is very open to improve upon the current level of integration, if there's sufficient demand from Bookends users. Based on the user response in the forums, the current interest seems to be somewhat moderate though, but Jon may know better.

[Jon]

Hi,

A couple of things. Thanks for the suggestions, Danny. One request is unnececessary -- Bookends *can* output the reference type and the rating in the format (rating was added in 10.0.2, I believe). I'll look at the others.

As for refbase, I'm certainly will to explore syncing through refbase with Matthias. It wouldn't sync attachments, of course. And there are a lot of other issues I can think of. Perhaps sync isn't the right idea. Perhaps simply update one based on the other is more appropriate.

Jon
Sonny Software

[Jon]

2. Make BE remember the window sizes for attachments and formatted.

I think we've been through this. These sizes are remembered. If you have a db that doesn't, please send it to me and tell me *exactly* what to do to see the problem. We may be talking about different things.


Jon
Sonny Software

[danzac]

Jon, perhaps we are talking about different things.

When I choose the formatted view in List view, the formatted window pops up at the bottom of the list. I keep it pretty small. Then If I were to choose the attachment view, the attachment window on the bottom remains the same size as what the formatted window was previously. Obviously users would want the attachments view to be much larger.

As to the formatting issue, my apologies. I didn't notice the update. But one thing I'd still like to add to a custom format for the concise view - in the default one it indicates which group(s) the citation is in. Can this be an item that can be added to a format as well?

Also, can font colors show in the concise view as well?

I'm very happy to here about the refbase stuff

[Jon]

Hi,

I see. Yes, Bookends remembers the size and position of the display pane. It doesn't distinguish between the contents. What you want would be difficult if not impossible to do well, because the pane exists in the context of the rest of the window. So if you had last viewed attachments when the entire window was large, then made the window smaller while the formatted ref was displayed, what would Bookends do when you switched to the attachment view? There are too many variables (window size, whether the info pane is open or not and how wide). So Bookends remembers the display pane dimensions and what was last shown.

Jon
Sonny Software

[rickl]

I cannot speak for Jon, of course, but my previous discussions with him indicated that he is very open to improve upon the current level of integration, if there's sufficient demand from Bookends users. Based on the user response in the forums, the current interest seems to be somewhat moderate though, but Jon may know better.

Speaking to the interest level issue, of course I can't speak for everyone. But it's certainly a big issue for me. One reason I haven't been going on about it recently is that Jon has only just finished work on the new version, and I thought he deserved a bit of a rest from the constant pressure for new and better stuff! Another is that I haven't yet fully explored the functionality we do have already.

I've done a bit of uploading from Bookends to RefBase, and it seems to work great. What I want to do is set up my own installation of RefBase for my research group. I read through the documentation, and my first impression was that it might be quite a workout, especially as I would want BibTeX export and therefore would need to install bibutils. In general, I would say that anything you can do to make installation easier, or to make the documentation more complete or easier to find/understand would be very useful. And anything you and Jon can do on the integration front would also be most welcome.

Another possible reason why interest doesn't seem to be white hot is that many people may not have understood yet exactly what RefBase is, and how cool it would be to be able to make Bookends databases portable. I suspect it's one of those things you've got to try out before you realise how useful it is.

[msteffens]

What I want to do is set up my own installation of RefBase for my research group. I read through the documentation, and my first impression was that it might be quite a workout, especially as I would want BibTeX export and therefore would need to install bibutils.

If you've got your own web server then installation can be as simple as this:

1. Download the Bibutils binaries and copy them to an executable path
2. Download the refbase scripts and copy them to your server's web directory (more info)
3. Point your browser to 'install.php' (if the Bibutils binaries have been installed to a common directory the refbase install script will auto-locate them)
4. Fill out and submit the install form.

Feel free to contact us if you've got more questions about installing refbase.

And if you've got specific advice about what was confusing/lacking in the documentation (or during the installation process), please let us know so that we can improve/ease the installation and documentation.

And anything you and Jon can do on the integration front would also be most welcome.

I'll talk with Jon about it. Let us know if you have specific integration features you'd like to see.

Another possible reason why interest doesn't seem to be white hot is that many people may not have understood yet exactly what RefBase is, and how cool it would be to be able to make Bookends databases portable.

I agree that the benefits of this integration may not be obvious to everyone initially, and I'm aware that refbase could do much better to communicate its use. Also, the current refbase interface may already be too complex for many people and we should strive to make it more simple and customizable so that people could adopt it to their own needs.

Thanks for the input, Matthias

[rickl]

Thanks for the details. I would say that the http://wiki.refbase.net/index.php/Installing_refbase page was the biggest turnoff. There's a list of warnings and provisos at the top, followed by another warning not to delete your old database when you upgrade. Then there are a couple of things about Linux. I was wondering where the actual 1, 2, 3 instructions were.

[rickl]

A quick update for anyone interested: I went ahead and downloaded refbase, finding detailed instructions within the package. Unfortunately, I ran into some MySQL problems, and looking at the clock just now realised that I've sunk 6 hours into refbase today. I've requested assistance on the refbase forum, which seems to be pretty active, and will give people here an update if and when I solve the problems and get refbase installed successfully.

Not everyone will have these problems but it seems to me going forward that there might be some scope for some kind of special paid-for service from Sonny/RefBase. So far this has been an interesting education, but there's a limit to how much time I'm able to spend on this. If I could pay someone to install it for me, I'm pretty close to reaching the point where I would choose that option.

[msteffens]

Hi Rick, I agree that the wiki page you linked to could be improved. I had long-standing plans to mirror the install instructions from our INSTALL file at the Installing refbase wiki page so I guess I should finally do it. I agree that the wiki page should really list some easy steps at the top of the page that show what is necessary to install refbase. (currently it pretty much assumes that you'll download the refbase package and view its INSTALL file for installation instructions -- which isn't that helpful for people who just want to find out whether the refbase installation process is worth the trouble.)

W.r.t. your installation problems, I (and my co-dev Rick) have responded to you in the refbase forums. Thanks for your persistence and your patience.

Speaking of a professional hosting service for refbase applications, we have actually plans to offer that but haven't yet worked out all the details. However, we do already provide some hosting of individual refbase databases at refbase.org, see e.g. http://ee.refbase.org. Please contact me privately (at refbase at extracts de) if you're interested in something similar.

[rickl]

Thanks for the prompt feedback, Matthias, both here and over at RefBase. I don't want to bore Bookends users who aren't interested in RefBase, so I'll take the conversation off here for now.

[Enkidu]

As for refbase, I'm certainly will to explore syncing through refbase with Matthias. It wouldn't sync attachments, of course. And there are a lot of other issues I can think of.

I'm not sure why not syncing attachments is a necessary limitation. Copyright issues are important, obviously, but surely it is the user's responsibility to ensure that they are followed?

Perhaps, in the event that syncing with Refbase becomes a reality (and I keep praying it does), there could be a checkbox in preferences, by default unchecked, for syncing attachments, and that the first time you checked it you could get a warning popping up? Perhaps attachment syncing could be restricted to password-protected pages?

The reason I make the point is that syncing of attachments is one of the main features our lab requires from a lit-review webpage. We have our own password-protected refbase server, we all have legal access to all the documents (as does anyone at virtually any post-secondary institute), and one of the main reasons for setting up the server is for us to be able to access the documents we need with ease.

Any program with the ability to do true syncing of references with a fully-editable webpage, including attachments, will get multiple licenses purchased by us, and almost certainly by half the mac-based labs out there.

Just making one more push - I'll shut up about this for a while .

[Jon]

I realize that syncing would be useful, but it's not easy to do well and requires a lot of thought and planning. We're at the thinking stage.

Jon
Sonny Software

[Enkidu]

Right - sorry to keep bringing it up. I'm glad it's even being considered.

The only thing I wanted to say in this thread was to do with attachments specifically - in the event that syncing does get implemented, I didn't see the rationale for not including them.