Sonny Software

Hi Jon,
I've been working intensively with the keywords terms list and have run into a little problem. I have some quite long keywords, so I tried stretching the lefthand pane ("Item") across to see the whole keywords, but found I wasn't able to. It seems that we can change the width of columns within the lefthand pane and within the righthand pane, but however much we stretch the total window across we cannot make the lefthand pane wider. Any advice?

Click on the little disclosure triangle. Then you have just the list of words and you can stretch that.

Jon
Sonny Software

Thanks, Jon. That works OK, though it occurs to me that it would be even better if it stayed stretched when re-clicking the disclosure triangle to see both keywords and the references to which they reply.

In the last year or two, there have been a host of advances in finding information external to Bookends and getting it into Bookends in seamless ways. I'm thinking of things like being able to find a reference in Google Scholar and other services and automatically download the reference information and any available PDF, making sure that they get filed away together, as well as having Bookends trawl through one's hard disk to find a PDF that one might have downloaded at some time in the past and match it with a reference. I'm grossly oversimplifying here, but I think the years leading before that tended to have a focus on the mechanics of output, such as how to output citations and reference lists in the correct formats (and of course that's still continuing today, most recently with ensuring compatibility with Pages '09).

The current discussion on notecards represents a somewhat different tack, using the data we already have in Bookends as a locus for idea generation. I've been thinking that the Keywords terms list is another area that could be reworked with a similar purpose. This is a topic that doesn't come up too much in the forum, but it seems to me to be the place where those of us who want to explore our data in Bookends (rather than focusing on the mechanics of getting data in, or of outputting the references) should be spending most of our time. From the point of view of making Bookends accessible across the generation gap, it has all the basic functionality, and more, of tag clouds. Possible problems are that it doesn't look anything like a tag cloud, the terminology may present a problem to younger users, and it's somewhat tucked away in a sub-menu of the Extras menu.

I think that renaming keywords as tags would just be seen as a cheap trick. But changing the appearance is something that might be doable and worthwhile, and I think changing the location of the menu item and treating keywords as a first-class citizen rather than just one kind of terms list are things that are worth thinking about.

I've been rambling a bit because I don't really have a clear idea of what I'd like, just a vague feeling that this feature isn't all it could be. I'm sure that, if you're interested in developing this part of the application, other users will have some clearer ideas of what they'd like to see.

http://www.sonnysoftware.com/phpBB3/vie ... f=2&t=1503

I'd welcome everyone's input on this and the suggested notes (notecard) thread you linked to. I'm not sure I agree with you that treating Keywords differently from other terms is a good idea. Lot os other metadata (e.g. authors) are "keywords", too, but usually generated for free (meaning they are imported, whereas you have to enter the keywords yourself if you want internal consistency). Being able to see all the works by one author (or using Shift-click to create a virtual group, the works by multiple authors) in your database is a pretty powerful way to navigate your data. But taking Term Lists out of the Extras menu is fine with me. Where should it go?

Jon
Sonny Software

rickl wrote:In the last year or two, there have been a host of advances in finding information external to Bookends and getting it into Bookends in seamless ways […]

I've been rambling a bit because I don't really have a clear idea of what I'd like, just a vague feeling that this feature isn't all it could be. I'm sure that, if you're interested in developing this part of the application, other users will have some clearer ideas of what they'd like to see.

I have only now read this post of yours – the argument you have made here is quite similar to what I posted (later) in the thread that you have linked. The rambling is similar too

Looks like we have a feeling that more has changed than meets the eye!

Jon wrote: Lots of other metadata (e.g. authors) are "keywords", too, but usually generated for free (meaning they are imported, whereas you have to enter the keywords yourself if you want internal consistency).

Very true. I guess it wouldn't make sense, after all, to give keywords as such special status, beyond other metadata.

I'm not sure whether this make sense or not, but how about an Explore button or something of the sort at the top of the List view? Just something that popped into my head; I haven't thought it through.

I think keywords are special on their own right because the user has chosen them. Helping the user to be consistent with the selection would be more helpful to me. A "cloud-like" representation of the keywords (tags) may also be helpful, I think it's an area worth exploring. But I'm more concerned with the data entry aspect.

del.icio.us tags are a very good example, in my opinion, of consistently assigning tags/keywords (as well as searching them). Let's imagine that I have a book about politics. But I don't recall if I have politics as a keyword (maybe I use power, government, political conflict). If I start typing "po" I may get "political economy". The problem is that when I finish typing politics I don't know if I created a new keyword or used the existing one (e.g. my convention may be "government" instead of politics). At that point I luckily remember that there's a term list (but it may not be updated, see point below). By contrast, in delicious if I type "pol" I'll get all instances beginning with the three letters in a bottom row and I'm able to choose (with the arrows I believe) the correct keyword.

Finally, for the term list to be more useful, in my opinion, it should be: a) narrower , b) searchable, c) constantly updated.

Hi,

Maybe I'm missing your point, but to be clear: (1) all term lists are constantly updated (new terms are added as you enter them, but to *remove* terms you have deleted you must tell Bookends to update the term list), (2) fields with term lists have autocomplete, so you'll see the suggested term as you type -- the up/down arrows will take you through the list of all terms that match the preceding letters, and (3) all term lists are searchable -- just type in a few letters and the list will scroll to the first matching term.

Jon
Sonny Software

aechallu wrote:By contrast, in delicious if I type "pol" I'll get all instances beginning with the three letters in a bottom row and I'm able to choose (with the arrows I believe) the correct keyword.

I would find this useful too – a drop down list of matching keywords that is automatically displayed after I start typing. Similar things exist for search / address fields in browsers etc.

(1) all term lists are constantly updated (new terms are added as you enter them, but to *remove* terms you have deleted you must tell Bookends to update the term list)

,

Yes, but I'd rather have not to manually update after removing terms.

(2) fields with term lists have autocomplete, so you'll see the suggested term as you type -- the up/down arrows will take you through the list of all terms that match the preceding letters, and

I completely missed this feature, so I appreciate your reply. Still, like Ozean, I think it'd be more intuitive if this feature works as in the browser or the standard autocomplete dropbox.

(3) all term lists are searchable -- just type in a few letters and the list will scroll to the first matching term.

I can type the beginning of a keyword, but "econ" would not retrieve "political economy." Still, that's a minor issue. In general, the way the keyword window works now is not useful to me. I could expand, but if this is not something other users find issue with, I think it wouldn't be helpful to propose anything.

Well, I think my earlier posts on this thread reveal a kind of vague dissatisfaction, but I wasn't able to express it as well as you have. And I suspect there are other users who aren't complaining because they don't actually use keywords very much, but might benefit as much as much as we would if it were improved. I actually think the flow of this discussion on some points is most productive: you, or someone else, makes a specific criticism; then Jon points out that the criticism doesn't really apply, which allows us in turn to either discover or rediscover a feature that we haven't been using, or perhaps get closer to discovering, and finding the words to express, what we really want.

At any rate, I don't know what more I can add at this point, but I'm eager to see you expand further on your thoughts on how to make Keywords more useful.

aechallu wrote:

Yes, but I'd rather have not to manually update after removing terms.

I don't know how often you remove keywords. But to refresh the list and remove the keywords is easy and fast -- open the term list, press the Delete key, then Return when the dialog appears.

I can type the beginning of a keyword, but "econ" would not retrieve "political economy."

I don't know of any lists in any app that behave that way. You can of course use Find to find references with any keyword or string (like econ) in the keywords field.

Still, that's a minor issue. In general, the way the keyword window works now is not useful to me.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why. The requests you've made aren't for new capabilities AFACT, just refinements of what Bookends already has (autoupdate to remove unused terms instead of a few keystrokes, a popup list to suggest matching terms instead of the up/down arrows, and typeahead searching of strings *within* terms). I don't see how this make terms more useful.

Jon
Sonny Software

Jon,

The keywords [term list] window is not helpful to me, but keywords do help me a lot to get organized.

The only use I find for the keywords window is to streamline the existing list (such as pruning keywords I use rarely). But if I need to rename, merge, search, or assign keywords, the window is not useful. That's simply what I meant. And I believe that there are benefits to be gained by strengthening the keyword window into something that: a) allows easier assignments of keywords, and b) allows searching (of keywords but also of records that match 1 or more keywords).

Perhaps in the future I can provide a mock-up or provide better usage scenarios to make the point more clear so you can evaluate what's doable and what fits your vision. So far I simply echo what other user said, if keywords worked like tags work in other programs (or in delicious.com) I think it'd be more useful to me. And I believe that the most important aspect that facilitates the use of tags/keywords is that other products allow users to maintain better consistency in assigning keywords and to retrieve information based on them.

In any case, I really appreciate you hearing users and trying to get to the bottom of our thoughts, it really reflects how committed you are to BE and the user community.

aechallu wrote:The only use I find for the keywords window is to streamline the existing list (such as pruning keywords I use rarely). But if I need to rename, merge, search, or assign keywords, the window is not useful. That's simply what I meant. And I believe that there are benefits to be gained by strengthening the keyword window into something that: a) allows easier assignments of keywords, and b) allows searching (of keywords but also of records that match 1 or more keywords).

Hi,

FYI, you can use the keyword list to assign keywords to a reference (drag and drop, use the action menu Insert, or press Option-Command-I). Also, you can instantly find references that match one or more keywords by expanding the term list window (use the disclosure triangle at the top) and selecting one or more keywords from the list. You have the additional option of making the search AND or OR (in the action popup menu).

Perhaps in the future I can provide a mock-up or provide better usage scenarios to make the point more clear so you can evaluate what's doable and what fits your vision. So far I simply echo what other user said, if keywords worked like tags work in other programs (or in delicious.com) I think it'd be more useful to me. And I believe that the most important aspect that facilitates the use of tags/keywords is that other products allow users to maintain better consistency in assigning keywords and to retrieve information based on them.

That would be very helpful.

In any case, I really appreciate you hearing users and trying to get to the bottom of our thoughts, it really reflects how committed you are to BE and the user community.

Many of the features we implement originate with user requests. You'll see such an example in the next update, which implements a feature you (and others) have requested elsewhere.

Jon
Sonny Software

FYI, you can use the keyword list to assign keywords to a reference (drag and drop, use the action menu Insert, or press Option-Command-I).

Hi Jon,

How do I deselect ALL of the keywords in the list, so that I can start from a blank slate, as it were?

One problem with the present display that occurs to me is that the number of keywords that we can see on one screen is very limited when they're in one long column. Perhaps that's why people like tag "clouds" so much? Assuming we stick with broadly the current setup, though, may I reiterate my hope that the lefthand column remain resizeable when the disclosure triangle is clicked?

Thanks for reiterating some of these tips here. I know they're in the manual but it's good to be reminded. I really think this is a good subject for one of those video tutorials.