Sonny Software

Hello all,

Would appreciate some tips on the following:

In my Formats manager, for CITATION First Occurrence, I leave a [space] after the "p" field - as in: I do the same in the Subsequent Occurrence, as follows: This works perfectly, since I always use the "Copy Citation and Modifiers" option, and insert the page/pages each time - to then appear after the "@" sign, in my {temp citation}.

First occurrence then sees [Author] ["Title"] [(date)] [Journal Abbreviation] [1st page of article] [page being referred to]
Subsequent occurrence sees [Author] [(date)] [Journal Abbreviation] [page being referred to]

My problem:

Sometimes I don't refer to a particular page, or series of pages - I simply need to mention the entire article, as being a source that can be consulted for further reading.
I also haven't (stupidly) filled in the Pages field comprehensively throughout my reference library - so do not always have a start and end page for all my articles.

If I now cite an article WITHOUT adding a particular page reference, the citation appears with a [space] after the [1st page of the article].
If I "remove" that space in the Formats Manager - then (obviously), I sit with the problem of there being no space between [1st page] and [pages referred to], in all cases where I do insert the latter.

How would I get around this?
Is there some way to get BE to drop the space if nothing follows [1st page]?

I realise my problem is no doubt due to my incorrect use of the Pages format. If someone could possibly clarify alternative options, I would be very grateful. Fortunately not too far in to my writing, so can still make any required changes.

If you are using cited pages in the citation, why do you have a "p" in the format at all? If you have cited pages, the pages field will be ignored.

As far as I can see, your citation format should be

a "t" (d) v u4[NO space)

and you'd cite with

{temp cite@12-15}

In the format, you'd tell Bookends to output Space before the pages, or "p. ", or whatever you want.

Please read the section in the user guide on how to create and use cited pages.

Jon
Sonny Software

Jon wrote:If you are using cited pages in the citation, why do you have a "p" in the format at all? If you have cited pages, the pages field will be ignored.

As far as I can see, your citation format should be

a "t" (d) v u4[NO space)

and you'd cite with

{temp cite@12-15}

In the format, you'd tell Bookends to output Space before the pages, or "p. ", or whatever you want.

Please read the section in the user guide on how to create and use cited pages.

Jon
Sonny Software

Thanks Jon,

My particular style guideline requires the 1st page (followed by cited pages) - but only for the First Occurence.
Subsequent occurrence requires only cited pages.

Your point of "outputting a space before the page numbers", is probably want I need. Thanks - know what to look for now.

Realize that if you use cited pages, any reference to the page(s) (that is, "p") in the reference will be ignored. If you need both, don't use cited pages, use quoted text:

{temp cite\ 45\}

Jon
Sonny Software

Jon wrote:Realize that if you use cited pages, any reference to the page(s) (that is, "p") in the reference will be ignored. If you need both, don't use cited pages, use quoted text:

{temp cite\ 45\}

Jon
Sonny Software

Thanks Jon,

Your suggestion is what I will fall back on, if I don't find something else.

It will undoubtedly work - but the (obvious) joy of letting BE do as much as possible, also means I don't need to keep track of when a particular source, is the FIRST occurrence of that source - since that would be when I would need to use the quoted text, as suggested.
If I can manage to find a work-around, then I needn't have to keep tabs on whether or not a source was cited in a previous chapter, that might only get worked on again in a few months. Currently, I'm doing major jumping around between several chapters - working new(?) references in here and there - which is why I'm hoping to find something.

Bookends can tell when a reference has been cited a second (or third, etc.) time and use the Secondary order field in the format. But Cited Pages are not in the format and not added by Bookends, they're added by you. If you add them to the first time a reference is cited, Bookends will output them, it has no way of knowing that you were just kidding.

Jon
Sonny Software

Jon wrote:Realize that if you use cited pages, any reference to the page(s) (that is, "p") in the reference will be ignored. If you need both, don't use cited pages, use quoted text:

{temp cite\ 45\}

Jon
Sonny Software

Jon - just had a thought about this - and am now curious.

I don't have that happening this side? My FIRST occurrence does indeed output [first page] [cited pages] when I scan - just confirmed it now.
No problem, since this is obviously what I am hoping for - but am now wondering if I was not understanding you correctly?

My format for FIRST occurrence citation: a "t" (d) v u4 p [cited pages]

That shouldn't be, and I can't reproduce it. We may be talking about different things. Please contact tech support and attack the format you are using, your database (zipped), and a document with a single citation. I'll scan it here.

Jon
Sonny Software

Jon wrote:That shouldn't be, and I can't reproduce it. We may be talking about different things. Please contact tech support and attack the format you are using, your database (zipped), and a document with a single citation. I'll scan it here.

Jon
Sonny Software

Thanks for the offer Jon.

But thankfully no more need. I've managed to get it all sorted out.

Jon - is it possible that an update (from BE12.1.2.3 to 12.1.2.4, or whatever) can reset some of the Format settings?
Noticed that I left notes to myself in the Format manager for the Style I was struggling with, and realised that certain of the settings had changed somewhere. It was these changes, that once 'reset', got everything working again. Might have been me, but wondering if it wasn't possibly the update?

Not a criticism at all, just want to check. If its at all possible, I will be more careful saving/backing-up/noting settings etc., before updating.

Thanks again.

The is no modification of formats when migrating from Bookends 12.0 to any other version of 12 (up through 12.1.2 anyway, I can't speak to the future). Migrating from 11.x to 12.0, however, was accompanied by many changes. These are all internal, there are no intentional changes to the information you entered in the format.

Jon
Sonny Software