Strangeness in metatypes

[monolateral]

I am opening a new thread; otherwise this will probably be lost in the previous large one. I have a specific problem to present after an observation about the Reference Link Manager.

As background, I am working with a special BE database that has one base dictionary entry and two child entries.

I have found that the Reference Link Manager is easily confused, and I think inconsistent. Different things happen so unexpectedly that I don't have a clear flow of what happens after what. When I add a new child to a parent, with the parent in the top well, I sometimes see a very short, incompletely formatted 'reference' in the child line; often it is just the last name of the author, such as 'Osborn', or perhaps the full name. If I double-click on the top well, then back on the child line, it can become more confused, flipping the parent and child in the top and bottom, with incomplete information. If I close the Inspector window and open it, it usually displays fully formatted biblio entries, although I may have seen instances when it does not look right. I don't know how to suggest reproducing this except trying different parent and child actions to see what it does.

The problem: I have an RTF file with several temp cites introduced by cmd-Y from the test db. It looks like this:

{Evans, 2000, #235111}

{Osborn, 2000, #34477}
…
{Osborn, 2000, #34477}
…
{Osborn, 2000, #34477}
…
{Osborn, 2000, #34477}

After scanning that file I see this:

C.A. Evans, “Messianism,” in dictionary entry 2000). dictionary entry cite

G. R. Osborn, “Messianism,” in dictionary entry 2000). dictionary entry cite
…
Osborn
…
Osborn
…
Osborn

The problem is that second and subsequent temp cites to "{Osborn, 2000, #34477}" only result in "Osborn". Is that expected behaviour?

[monolateral]

I should add the bibiography entries are correctly generated using the metatype biblio format; that is the significance of the 'In mt'.

Dictionary of New Testament Background. Eds. C. A. Evans, and Stanley E. Porter. Downers Grove: IVP, 2000.
Evans, C.A. “Messianism.” In mt Dictionary of New Testament Background. Eds. C. A. Evans, and Stanley E. Porter. Downers Grove: IVP, 2000.
Osborn, G. R. “Messianism.” In mt Dictionary of New Testament Background. Eds. C. A. Evans, and Stanley E. Porter. Downers Grove: IVP, 2000.

As I have indicated in my previous long thread, the citations are the problems, at least I think they are. What I am calling a problem is that child citations do not use the metatype citation format; they use the format defined in their normal Type formats, in this case 'Dictionary Entry'. Because they are not using the metatype citation formats, the parent information is not merged into the final citation.

In my first post in this thread I gave the post-scan citation result:

G. R. Osborn, “Messianism,” in dictionary entry 2000). dictionary entry cite

The parent information is missing. I know the Type 'Dictionary Entry' format was used because that is where I inserted the identifying text 'dictionary entry'.

Is this how child citations should work? That is not how I understand they should work, but I am very new to working with metatypes.

[Jon]

1. Metatypes work in both citations and bibliographies. They have to be set independently in the Bibliography and Citation Options tabs.

2. Bookends doesn't try to resolve parent/child relationships in the Format Manager examples. It shows you what you would see if the reference it uses as an example is both parent AND child. To see the final output you have to scan.

3. The relationships are set in the Link Inspector. The relationship of the reference on top (in the rounded rectangle) to the ones in the list is shown. And can be changed with the popup arrows. To change the reference on top drag in a new one from the list below or from the library window reference list.

4. The reason you see Osborne multiple times is because you sited the same reference multiple times:

{Osborn, 2000, #34477}

And with the format you are using, apparently subsequent citations to the same reference will output only the author's surname.

When setting up metatypes, it helps if you create the simplest possible references and relationships and build upon this step-by-step.

Jon
Sonny Software

[monolateral]

Thank you for your response. Much of this I have already described or done, but in an effort to be thorough, I have posted in detail, and it would be extremely easy to miss things.

1. Metatypes work in both citations and bibliographies. They have to be set independently in the Bibliography and Citation Options tabs.

Yes, I have done that.

The problem is that the child does not use the metatype citation format. That is the only remaining difficulty.

I have tried selecting both the child reference in the main window and the child line in the Reference Link Manager when I do cmd-Y to insert the temporary citation into Nisus; as expected, they create the same temp cite.

As I have described, I have set unique text in the format strings for the three types described in the original post in this thread so I know which was referenced, and only the bibliography metatype format is used. The child citations all use the Dictionary Entry citation format, the Type for the dictionary entries ( well duh... ), but not the metatype format. Because the metatype is not used, the parent data is not inserted into the final citation.

I wish I knew what I was doing wrongly, or what I might to differently, but citations of the child only reference the format for that Type, not the metatype format. By using a test database with only two entries, a parent for the generic dictionary information, and a child for the dictionary entry, I can see the relation in the Reference Link Manager, and it appears to be good. I have exhausted the options I know.

If it is of use I posted a screen snap of the parent/child relation in the Reference Link Manager in a post in my first long thread. It appears good to me.

2. Bookends doesn't try to resolve parent/child relationships in the Format Manager examples. It shows you what you would see if the reference it uses as an example is both parent AND child. To see the final output you have to scan.

I had come to that conclusion, but yes, thanks. In testing from the beginning of this project I always run a scan; that is how I know whether something works or not.

3. The relationships are set in the Link Inspector. The relationship of the reference on top (in the rounded rectangle) to the ones in the list is shown. And can be changed with the popup arrows. To change the reference on top drag in a new one from the list below or from the library window reference list.

Yes, I have worked that out. As I mentioned there are different images on p 161 or 162 and 262; the former shows with Parent:Child in the child line dropdown, and the latter shows Child:Parent in the dropdown in the child line dropdown; I am writing quickly from memory, so the page numbers may be approximate. I was not sure what to make of that difference, but I think I am comfortable with that operation now. Parent and child can interchangeably be in either the top well or in the bottom part; what matters is how the dropdown is set to establish the parent/child relation. I hope that is right.

4. The reason you see Osborne multiple times is because you sited the same reference multiple times: …
And with the format you are using, apparently subsequent citations to the same reference will output only the author's surname.

Busted... I had closely focused on the format string in the metatype for both first and subsequent, but for the Dictionary and Dictionary Entry formats I had only focused on the first instance and overlooked the subsequent format. My apologies for missing that.

When setting up metatypes, it helps if you create the simplest possible references and relationships and build upon this step-by-step.

That is what I am doing. As I have indicated, several days ago I created a new database with two entries: one parent dictionary entry, and one child entry. Only after I thought I had some success last night did I add a second child.

Again, thank you, and I appreciate for your responsiveness.

[Jon]

Good, so its down to one issue. Please contact tech support directly and send your tiny example library and your format. And tell me which word processor you are using.

Jon
Sonny Software