BE and note taking software (Scribe)

A place for users to ask each other questions, make suggestions, and discuss Bookends.
Jon
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Post by Jon »

gke wrote:Jon, sorry for unloading all this in the BE forum without even once mentioning the application .......guess it is just performing its task so well, that we are only thinking of ways how to make it interact in useful ways with the other applications we use. Danzac's suggestion to improve the interaction between BE and DT seems to be a good one in this respect.
Hi,

This kind of discussion is very useful, so please proceed. As for Bookends and DT, we approached the developers of that app and they weren't particularly interested.

Jon
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danzac
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continuing the conversations....

Post by danzac »

below are three separate conversations-

Jon- I am sorry to hear that DT isn't interested, although i can understand a little bit there point of view. To make DT especially friendly with BE means Sente and Endnote users would come knocking soon. They are able to nicely show BiBTeX formatted stuff- which leads me to my next point.....
There is still a way forward in this that would benefit your users and that requires nothing of the DT people. BE now makes scheduled backups of our databases. Could you create a feature that made another secondary scheduled backup of the entire database in a format of our choosing? If BE were able to export the database in BiBTeX once a week (or whenever the user chooses) then these compatability issues would be resolved as best they can. That way, users could customize their bibtex format to however they wanted it output (I would just want author, title, date, notes, keywords, and abstract) and DT could import the exported .bib file. DT already has the ability to keep itself up to date. This feature would also make BE potentially more usable for other database users. I am not sure about Filemaker, but I think Yojimbo as well as SOHO notes can import either .bib or xml files. So BE's secondary backup could be in .bib (for DT users) or .xml or whatever. Then it is up to the database programs to sync themselves with the resulting exported file. It is a 'meet in the middle' type of approach.

Unless someone can think of another way to make this happen, this seems to be the way forward. Can it be done though? I would sure love it if it could happen (and you'd probably be the first bib.software to have this feature too!)


gke- DT searches are much more sophisticated than spotlight. Here is an excerpt from the site:
Classify: Files documents into the most appropriate group, automatically
See also: Shows similar documents
See selected text: Finds documents similar to a selected test passage
Topics: The most important words of a text, automatically extracted
Fuzzy search: Finds similarly spelled words
Powerful search function: Finds related words, helps broaden or narrow the search
Intelligent summarize: Creates digests of texts based on the contents of the database
Concordance
Group documents automatically by content
With this kind of sophisticated searching you can see why I want to be able to search my BE database, attachments and my DT database all at once. The DT search will often find links between relevant documents that a spotlight search cannot.

Gerben: I think DEVONthink is what you are looking for. I don't have experience with FileMaker so i can't speak to that, but the $500 price tag is enough to keep me loyal to DT. From what you are saying you want, I definitely think DT will work for you. As I said, you can have multiple notes collected in one file on a book that is intelligently searched in DT. You can also replicate any of those notes to different parts of your database. So let say your book is called "The end of WW1". You make a folder with that name and have 15 notes in the file, all named according to the topic. Now lets say you specifically have a folder elsewhere in you database on Germany in WW1. One of you notes on your book "The end of WW1" is specifically on Germany. With a click of the mouse you can "replicate" to file to the other folder so you have it in both spots.

The other beautiful thing about DT is that you can choose to have it make wikilinks for you throughout the database. So let's say you have a file in your "The end of WW1" folder titled 'Casualties of War'. Now anywhere in your entire database where the phrase 'Casualties of War' pops up, the text will be wiki-linked to that file. DT is not only a paperless office, it is a paperless office on steroids.
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Gerben
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Post by Gerben »

Different comments here as well:

Gke; I understand the point of breaking up notes in bits and subsequent issues (which is an issue dating back to good old note cards). I suppose most people would always keep a copy of the original complete notes at hand when writing.

Practically speaking, Filemaker (and the freeware apps i mentioned) has no problem to create multiple records per reference.
You also mention the idea of tagging notes, thus keeping the original structure preserved while still being able to search in them with ease. Correct me if i am wrong but isn't this more or less what the concordance function in DT can achieve? You search for the occurence of specific words and can then browse the relevant docs for them.

Danzac; i am convinced and bought DT Pro yesterday after some more reading. Looks already like a very good investment and functionality coming up in version 2.0 will make it even better for scholarly purposes i think. As for integration with BE: idea for BE sounds good, i might also kindly ask the developers of DT to consider integration with bibliographic apps, it seems a logical step to to take to serve that segment of their user base that uses it for academic purposes.

Gerben
rickl
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Bookends, DT, Wikindx

Post by rickl »

I have only just noticed this discussion. Here is my 1p.

I have a folder in my Documents folder called "Move to DevonThink", with the "Import to DT" AppleScript attached. Any research-related PDFs, etc., that I download go in here and end up in DT automatically.

Whenever possible I input bibliographic data into Bookends immediately after downloading the PDF. I have the Move to DT folder in list view ordered by date modified so usually the top file is the one to drag onto the Bookends reference window. Bookends is set to move attachments, so the PDF disappears from the Move to DT folder once it has been imported to DT.

Partially echoing what's been said further up the thread, I export refs to BibTeX to import into DT sheets. I give the reference entries in these sheets wiki-style aliases so that I can refer to them from other documents in DT. To avoid the potential for overwriting data when reexporting from Bookends (after new references have been added) I export 50 or fewer references at a time. So I have separate sheets in DT for refs 1-50, 51-100, and so on.

My DT database is too big to be easily portable, and my colleagues don't have DT, so I've just installed Wikindx on my web server and given my colleagues usernames. The plan is to upload the references currently in my Bookends database to Wikindx, and then do a periodic upload whenever my Bookends database grows significantly. Hopefully, my colleagues will also be adding references to the Wikindx installation regularly, too, via whatever desktop tools they have. (And I assume it won't be difficult to download what they add to my Bookends database.) Apart from the collaborative aspect of Wikindx, it's quite impressive for the range of access points it gives you: in addition to searching and listing references you can do things like throwing up random quotes or paraphrases.

Only time will tell whether the extra mental overhead of having a secondary repository online will prove more trouble than it's worth, but I'm hopeful that having a few more people collecting and inputting references will add significant value.
gke
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Post by gke »

I would like to second the suggestion made by danzac regarding the possibility to have an automatic backup made of BE databases in a format of one's choosing. This could be very useful as well for setting up some sort of workflow for synchronisation of bibliographical data between BE and pda.

All the suggestions made re the use of DT, Wikindx etc. sound very interesting indeed - I will give all this a try and post back to this thread some time to report on my impressions.
danzac
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Post by danzac »

gke wrote:This could be very useful as well for setting up some sort of workflow for synchronisation of bibliographical data between BE and pda.
Ahh...I had not thought of this, that would indeed be useful to keep your pda or iPod up to date as well. Of course that means we would need at least 2 scheduled exports, that might be a bit much. I haven't heard Jon on this issue yet
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gke
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Post by gke »

Not necessarily two - this depends on the format required - one and the same export format could potentially serve two purposes simultaneously.
danzac
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Post by danzac »

gke wrote:Not necessarily two - this depends on the format required - one and the same export format could potentially serve two purposes simultaneously.
i don't use a PDA anymore, but I don't think there is a pda software that could dispay .bib, and iPod viewing is through the vCard format.
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Jon
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Post by Jon »

danzac wrote:Ahh...I had not thought of this, that would indeed be useful to keep your pda or iPod up to date as well. Of course that means we would need at least 2 scheduled exports, that might be a bit much. I haven't heard Jon on this issue yet
Hi,

I'm following. I just don't have anything to add at the moment.

Jon
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guerson
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Post by guerson »

Little update to this thread:

A new version of scribe (created with filemaker 8) has recently been released and the next update (3.2) promises to include ability to import from bookends databases. Exactly what I need!! Needless to say, I'm waiting anxiously.
danzac
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Post by danzac »

guerson wrote:Little update to this thread:

A new version of scribe (created with filemaker 8) has recently been released and the next update (3.2) promises to include ability to import from bookends databases. Exactly what I need!! Needless to say, I'm waiting anxiously.
What about Mellel files?
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danzac
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Post by danzac »

Jon wrote: I'm following. I just don't have anything to add at the moment.
Does this mean the scheduled export isn't something that interests you?

Danny
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Jon
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Post by Jon »

Danny, like lots of very specific feature requests I get, this is an ad hoc solution to a very particular problem. On top of that, it would require a fair amount of interface overhead. I rarely implement such things, but would rather (if possible) address the underlying issue. In this case, that seems to be better integration with DT, which would be best accomplished by some interactivity between the applications. If/when DT feel they want to pursue this, I'll listen.

Jon
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Gerben
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Post by Gerben »

A new version of scribe (created with filemaker has recently been released and the next update (3.2) promises to include ability to import from bookends databases. Exactly what I need!! Needless to say, I'm waiting anxiously.
This looks good indeed. However, there is one problem with either Scribe or Lit-link: it is not easy to export data (specifically to get the notes out with the book/article/source it belongs to). So once you choose it you are pretty much stuck with it on the long run.

I have started experimenting with DT Pro for note-taking. I would sincerely appreciate it if a user on this forum could explain me how he/she uses it for notes (privately might be better on: Gerben.Zaagsma[at]IUE.it ).

Gerben
rickl
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Post by rickl »

I would sincerely appreciate it if a user on this forum could explain me how he/she uses it for notes (privately might be better on: Gerben.Zaagsma[at]IUE.it ).
Surely most of us who use DT and Bookends would appreciate this. Please don't take this private. Jon will correct me if I'm wrong, but anything that heps us use the suite of tools clustered around Boookends is indirectly relevant to Bookends.
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