Jon,
I am aware that there is an old thread on this and I recall the gist of your reasons against including Spotlight support in BE. But today I have read that "EndNote 9 supports Spotlight, the new desktop search technology for Mac OS X Tiger. In a single Spotlight search, users can locate EndNote references as well as other files on their Mac system." (http://www.endnote.com/pr-macworld2006.asp). Considering that Thomson Research is not the most Mac-friendly company around, and that it has not been particularly innovative concerning Endnote either, this makes you wonder… Should not a Mac-native app that usually outmatches Endnote by being creative and attentive to customer input try to at least match this? Also, I have realized that Sente—a much more rudimentary app in most aspects of bibliography management—responds spotlessly to spotlight queries.
I think there is no doubt that the ability of having a Spotlight search also return bibliographic entries is VERY useful indeed. Is Bookends eventually going to rise to this challenge, catch up with competitors, and give users a feature that has become standard?
spotlight support revisited
Hi frvs,
I reiterate -- I do not see much utility in Spotlight searches of Bookends data (we *do* support a much more creative (IMO) use of Spotlight in Bookends, which it search attached pdfs and locate the references that use them in Bookends). That I think is useful. Spotlight searches are slow and extremely limited. If you have one or a few Bookends database (which I highly recommend), it is far faster and more comprehensive to search within Bookends.
If it were a simple switch, I would support it (without enthusiasm). But it is not. Spotlight can only search and identify individual files. This means that each reference would have to be saved as a discrete file, not in a consolidated database (or at least in addition to a database). That causes a number of problems that affect the applications you have mentioned, which I won't go into here. But suffice it to say that's not a direction I want to go in.
Jon
Sonny Software
I reiterate -- I do not see much utility in Spotlight searches of Bookends data (we *do* support a much more creative (IMO) use of Spotlight in Bookends, which it search attached pdfs and locate the references that use them in Bookends). That I think is useful. Spotlight searches are slow and extremely limited. If you have one or a few Bookends database (which I highly recommend), it is far faster and more comprehensive to search within Bookends.
If it were a simple switch, I would support it (without enthusiasm). But it is not. Spotlight can only search and identify individual files. This means that each reference would have to be saved as a discrete file, not in a consolidated database (or at least in addition to a database). That causes a number of problems that affect the applications you have mentioned, which I won't go into here. But suffice it to say that's not a direction I want to go in.
Jon
Sonny Software
Spotlight:
Dear Jon,
I have asked you about Spotlight before as well, and I would simply continue to add my support for enabling Bookends to be searchable by Spotlight as well. I found this post a couple of months late, but I check periodically, hoping that I can better integrate Bookends with all of my other work through Spotlight.
Though I agree that Spotlight searches are quite slow, the overwhelming utility of this feature is the fact that it crosses all applications. The first place I look for most documents is Spotlight, because I can find all references to a search term -- and usually it pops up in multiple places and file formats.
Bookends is only one of a number of indexing systems I have to use for various file formats. I would like to put more information into my databases (such as the note fields), but the fact that I can't cross-reference the notes I write in Bookends means that out of necessity I keep them in other applications like NoteTaker or Word.
Generally, it's more important to me that all of my applications work together well than an individual application's features. I use Bookends intensively, and like it much, much more than EndNote, but I have to confess that I have also thought about switching because of the new Spotlight-ability.
Not being a programmer or familiar with databases, isn't is possible to make each of the entries in Bookends associated a text file that *is* searchable by Spotlight? Spotlight is slow but predictably finds words that are buried in Excel spreadsheets, Word documents, and pdf files.
Regards,
David
I have asked you about Spotlight before as well, and I would simply continue to add my support for enabling Bookends to be searchable by Spotlight as well. I found this post a couple of months late, but I check periodically, hoping that I can better integrate Bookends with all of my other work through Spotlight.
Though I agree that Spotlight searches are quite slow, the overwhelming utility of this feature is the fact that it crosses all applications. The first place I look for most documents is Spotlight, because I can find all references to a search term -- and usually it pops up in multiple places and file formats.
Bookends is only one of a number of indexing systems I have to use for various file formats. I would like to put more information into my databases (such as the note fields), but the fact that I can't cross-reference the notes I write in Bookends means that out of necessity I keep them in other applications like NoteTaker or Word.
Generally, it's more important to me that all of my applications work together well than an individual application's features. I use Bookends intensively, and like it much, much more than EndNote, but I have to confess that I have also thought about switching because of the new Spotlight-ability.
Not being a programmer or familiar with databases, isn't is possible to make each of the entries in Bookends associated a text file that *is* searchable by Spotlight? Spotlight is slow but predictably finds words that are buried in Excel spreadsheets, Word documents, and pdf files.
Regards,
David
Hi David,
As Spotlight stands now, each reference in the db would have to be saved as a text file. And any edits made to the database would have to be written to the text file. I am not going to add this complex overhead to Bookends (which would of course not exactly speed the program up). And of course if you move the database to another computer...
If Spotlight ever evolves to index data in single files I would certainly consider supporting it (we already support Spotlight searches from *within* Bookends).
Jon
Sonny Software
As Spotlight stands now, each reference in the db would have to be saved as a text file. And any edits made to the database would have to be written to the text file. I am not going to add this complex overhead to Bookends (which would of course not exactly speed the program up). And of course if you move the database to another computer...
If Spotlight ever evolves to index data in single files I would certainly consider supporting it (we already support Spotlight searches from *within* Bookends).
Jon
Sonny Software
DHSU800's reasoning is precisely the reason I hope there can be integration between Bookends and DEVONThink. BE's search is awesome, spotlight will never be as sophisticated, BUT - it is only searching one database. I have a whack of other info stored on my computer - mostly in DT - that I would like to search together. Alas, I am repeating myself and have already received my answer from the developers.....
~I swore to myself that if I ever got to walk around the room as manager people would laugh as they saw me coming and applaud as I walked away~
I've been thinking about this issue again and it seems clear that BE isn't going in this direction. Nevertheless I want to clarify why some of us users want it, which I am not sure is being recognized.
The spotlight search in BE is indeed very good, but it is only for attachments. A spotlight search goes through everything, not just attachments. So if spotlight searches were possible in BE, then I could search my attachments and my databases in one search.
Notice also the word databases (plural). Jon suggests that we have multiple databases "If you have one or a few Bookends database (which I highly recommend)". If we follow your recommendation, then a global search of all of my bib. notes and abstracts becomes alot more than just a single search, it becomes many. A spotlight search fixes this problem by being able to search every reference of all databases.
Another reason I have begun rethinking this issue is because devonthink may use spotlight importers in a future release to import information. As I am always looking for increased integration with DT, Spotlight integration with Bookends would bring the two closer together.
Again, I understand the reasons why this is not possible, but hopefully Jon understands a little better why some of us wish for it.
The spotlight search in BE is indeed very good, but it is only for attachments. A spotlight search goes through everything, not just attachments. So if spotlight searches were possible in BE, then I could search my attachments and my databases in one search.
Notice also the word databases (plural). Jon suggests that we have multiple databases "If you have one or a few Bookends database (which I highly recommend)". If we follow your recommendation, then a global search of all of my bib. notes and abstracts becomes alot more than just a single search, it becomes many. A spotlight search fixes this problem by being able to search every reference of all databases.
Another reason I have begun rethinking this issue is because devonthink may use spotlight importers in a future release to import information. As I am always looking for increased integration with DT, Spotlight integration with Bookends would bring the two closer together.
Again, I understand the reasons why this is not possible, but hopefully Jon understands a little better why some of us wish for it.
~I swore to myself that if I ever got to walk around the room as manager people would laugh as they saw me coming and applaud as I walked away~
Actually, Jon strongly suggests that you have one database. "...or a few..." was added only to emphasize the number should be small (ideally, one).
I don't really understand what you want Bookends to do. If you mean you want to search Bookends databases from the Finder (or to search multiple Bookends databases with one Spotlight search), the answer is you can't and probably never will (unless Apple changes the way Spotlight indexes files). If you mean something else, please be concrete and spell it out.
Jon
Sonny Software
I don't really understand what you want Bookends to do. If you mean you want to search Bookends databases from the Finder (or to search multiple Bookends databases with one Spotlight search), the answer is you can't and probably never will (unless Apple changes the way Spotlight indexes files). If you mean something else, please be concrete and spell it out.
Jon
Sonny Software
Okay I guess I misunderstood your sentence from the second post in this thread. It sure sounds like you are suggesting multiple databases. My apologies.
Yes, searching the database(s) and attachments- and the rest of my system!- is precisely what we desire.
But yes, I already understand that this is not possible. Again, I was just trying to clarify why the desire is there.
Yes, searching the database(s) and attachments- and the rest of my system!- is precisely what we desire.
But yes, I already understand that this is not possible. Again, I was just trying to clarify why the desire is there.
~I swore to myself that if I ever got to walk around the room as manager people would laugh as they saw me coming and applaud as I walked away~
Searching the hard drive for any matching files from within Bookends would be simple. But that's what the Finder does, and Bookends would do no more. What would you expect Bookends to do with the matches? I can't think of doing anything other than the Finder -- showing the list, allowing you to see them in the Finder, dragging and dropping them, etc. That capability is already there. If you have something Bookends-specific in minde, please let me know.
Jon
Sonny Software
Jon
Sonny Software
I think Danny (right name?) is just saying that it's better only to have to do one search to locate all relevant resources, but (he understands) that, as Spotlight stands it isn't possible to do that: at a minimum two are needed. I agree on both counts.
I do like Jon's implicit suggestion of a meta-search that takes a query and performs more than one search with it. It would be interesting to be able to search simultaneously for a keyword in 1) Bookends references, 2) attached files and 3) the standard Finder/spotlight search. One thing that could be useful is if the results for (2) were subtracted from the results for (3) so that, for example, a pdf attached to a Bookends reference would only be found once.
I do like Jon's implicit suggestion of a meta-search that takes a query and performs more than one search with it. It would be interesting to be able to search simultaneously for a keyword in 1) Bookends references, 2) attached files and 3) the standard Finder/spotlight search. One thing that could be useful is if the results for (2) were subtracted from the results for (3) so that, for example, a pdf attached to a Bookends reference would only be found once.
The Classic app UltraFind is still unsurpassed for searches with display of found text in context. It displays finds in BE databases as well as elsewhere.
The program is now free and available at: http://www.ultradesign.com/ultrafind/ultrafind.html
The program is now free and available at: http://www.ultradesign.com/ultrafind/ultrafind.html
Sorry, but are there still people using OS 9?sampler wrote:The Classic app UltraFind is still unsurpassed for searches with display of found text in context. It displays finds in BE databases as well as elsewhere.
The program is now free and available at: http://www.ultradesign.com/ultrafind/ultrafind.html
the website says they are planning an Os/X version.
Now why is it that an ancient (in the computer world) program can search inside BE databases, and spotlight cannot? that's annoying!
Now why is it that an ancient (in the computer world) program can search inside BE databases, and spotlight cannot? that's annoying!
~I swore to myself that if I ever got to walk around the room as manager people would laugh as they saw me coming and applaud as I walked away~
FYI:danzac wrote:the website says they are planning an Os/X version.
Now why is it that an ancient (in the computer world) program can search inside BE databases, and spotlight cannot? that's annoying!
It notes that no Mac OS X native version of UltraFind is planned.
I don't use Spotlight much. I find it unreliable. I use one or more of Quicksilver, Foxtrot and EasyFind (Still looking for one search app to do it all. Here's hoping to A LOT of improvement in Leopard's Spotlight implementation).
cheers
